Domestic Violence - Intimate Partner

We meet someone, fall in love, and develop a relationship, but then something happens, and your partner hurts, manipulates or frightens you. Perhaps you address it, but it's denied, or it's somehow your fault, or they apologise and promise it won't happen again. And we all make mistakes, so you trust this person who has hitherto loved you to redeem themselves. But what happens when this becomes a pattern, and you slowly realise you are walking on eggshells and embroiled in a volatile or destructive relationship?

The host, Beth Armstrong, guides an in-depth discussion between three brave, astute and articulate women who speak together anonymously to share their domestic violence stories with an intimate partner, how they escaped, and how it has affected their lives.  

Some topics included in this discussion may be triggering or distressing for some listeners. If you need support, please contact Beyond Blue on 1300 224 636 or Lifeline on 13 11 14. 

Topics include: 

•  impact of domestic violence / overt and covert abuse
• emotional, physical and sexual abuse
• stereotypes / cross-cultural and class
•  family law court
• alcoholism
• online connections
• charming, manipulative and deceitful 
• frog in boiling water analogy
• abusive childhood
• control - creating dependence/ jealousy 
• preference for a boy baby / obsessed with perfection - “mini-me” child
• perpetrator playing the victim - accusations of affairs and deceit
• relationship models from childhood 
• compassion - women brought up to fix things
•  emotional investment for love, wanting the dream
• their hurt, wronged by past partners, comparisons
• friends who call out abusive behaviour as enemies, perpetrator criticising them
• isolation / managing safety for children
• guardian angel friends
• cycle of violence
• psychological abuse and coercive control/ physical intimidation
• perpetrators in the police force
• image-based abuse - fake profile - publishing intimate photos online
• navigating escape

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Contact Beth at:  beth@curveballmedia.com.au

Sound production: Unison Sound.
Producer: Luke Mynott, Beth Armstrong
Host: Beth Armstrong
Editor: Tom Herdman, Mija Healey.
Sound Engineer: Micayla Laurence, Cihan Siral.
Composer: Biddy Connor
Artwork: wisebrownfox

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Transcript

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Curveball – The Club you didn't want to be part of Transcript
S02E015: Domestic Violence - Intimate Partner  
Runtime: 53:21 Mins

Voice Over (VO) [Beth Armstrong]: Warning! This episode includes a discussion that some might find triggering or distressing. If you need support, please contact Beyond Blue on 1300 224 636, or Lifeline on 13 11 14. 

Welcome to Curveball – The Club you didn't want to be part of. I'm Beth Armstrong. Sometimes in life, something comes out of the left field, and we're knocked sideways, be it cancer, miscarriage or divorce. How do we change for the better or worse by these experiences, and how do we manage? This is a late-night, no holds barred, black comedy discussion between three women, speaking anonymously - strangers, who happen to be members of the same club. 

Usually, we record episodes with everyone together in a sound studio. Occasionally due to restrictions or distance, we need to record remotely; as such, you may notice small variations in sound quality. 

Beth Armstrong: We meet someone, fall in love, and develop a relationship, but then something happens, and your partner hurts, manipulates or frightens you, throwing you off course. Perhaps you address it, but it's denied, or it's somehow your fault, or they apologise and promise it won't happen again. And we all make mistakes, so you trust this person who has hitherto loved you to redeem themselves. But what happens when this becomes a pattern, and you slowly realise you are walking on eggshells and embroiled in a volatile or destructive relationship? Tonight's episode is the Domestic Violence - Intimate Partner club. Speaking under pseudonyms they've chosen, I'm very pleased to welcome Sasha, Sheba and Sheridan.  So, Sasha, would you like to start? 

Sasha: Um, I was living in a violent relationship, so I'm a survivor of DV. I have a child to that person, so I left the relationship when I was pregnant. I met him 18 years ago, and prior to my relationship with him, I hadn’t experienced domestic violence as I understood it. We lived together for three years but he’s really been in my life till now, in terms of the impact of our relationship. So, going into that relationship at that time, I didn’t know what I was in for. You know, that statement we don’t go into relationships looking for an abusive partner or relationship was really true. You know I met him through a community. Our relationship started very quickly, and he was very charming, so that was the beginning so that fast-tracked into a very intense relationship that became emotionally, physically, sexually abusive, and it has been a very long journey in healing. I was not a woman that thought I would be in a violent relationship, and my friends would never have thought that I was a woman who would be in a violent relationship, which also says a lot about the stereotypes of who goes into a violent relationship. We have no contact now. My daughter - we went through a family law court case, and she has no physical contact with him at all. Um. You know I’ve got a lot of space and time through that really intense abuse, but it continues to be a huge learning curve. 

Beth Armstrong: Alright, thank you. Sheridan, can you tell us your story? 

Sheridan: So, following a fairly lengthy marriage, I had ended that marriage a few years prior, I had been single for a little while, and then I met this new man. And it’s interesting because I can relate so much to what Sasha said. My story has also some roots in religion. I was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness, and those religions are very patriarchal; behaviours that are not respectful are very much considered normal, so you just don’t realise you’re being abused. I actually left that first marriage because he was abusive, but I left that relationship a stronger woman. I was not at all damaged by his abuse, and that was because his abuse was really overt, and I matured and when I started work eventually.  Actually, my workplace is what taught me a lot. I thought, hang on, I’m working with adults here are, treat each other well, and then I’d go home to someone who was an alcoholic and his alcoholism worsened over the 16 years. And eventually, I just got tired of his excuses. He had issues he wouldn’t deal with. You know, as women, often we are told it’s our job to support him and fix him. I remember leaving that relationship feeling confident and thinking I will never have a relationship like that again, no way. And that’s when I met my next partner online, and he was everything you hear about perpetrators. They are charming; they are manipulative; they are deceitful. The way he presented himself initially, you know, were online and then when we first met, he kept on this facade, and I was completely fooled. And when he did start abusive behaviours, I was really like the frog in boiling water. He was so covert, the abuse was subtle and ambient, and I didn’t even realise it was happening. Even though that relationship was much, much shorter, by the end of the six years we were together; I didn’t even recognise who I was. But at the same time, I also recognise it was because of him that I had changed. I think it’s important to know that in my case, it was an officer involved domestic violence—someone who was a senior member of the police force. So, I also had two children in that relationship, and like Sasha has said, you don’t get to leave those relationship. You know, you’re always tied to the perpetrator, and their ability to control you continues through the children. 

Beth Armstrong: Thank you. Let’s hear from you, Sheba. 

Sheba: I was born and brought up in Africa, and I think that played a part of me ending up in very abusive relationships. My father was very abusive, and that was the norm, and because of culture because of religion, I was born and brought up a Catholic. You do not leave a relationship, you fight for it. So anyway, I was vacationing with my first husband in Euro. It was all good, but then it started to be, “you know, your weight is going a bit high” and at that point, I was able to.. this was my first real abusive relationship, but at that point, I was able to go - I think I was underweight. And in the process of leaving, I met somebody online and that’s where the horror story begins. It was one of the people I used to talk to online, and you pour your heart out. You know, you say this is happening I really need to get out of here, and he was very, very understanding.
We started dating, and I went back to my country, and my former employer really wants me back, and he says we have a very big time difference, going to interrupt our talk time, and I really, really depend on you emotionally, and that was the first beat - that I caught. Where I was living - and in Australia, there was a seven-hour difference, so it means I cannot go to work during the day because he really depends on me emotionally, but it was like, oh you know when we get stable, you can resume what you do, it’s not a problem. And I was African cabaret dance; it’s kind of like what you see in the Lion King show. And then came the next explanation - hey, look, you know every time you are on stage, people are looking at you, other men will see you; it’s not really good. And I rejected every job offer, and before I knew it, I was constantly on the busy in the way that if I needed to go to the shop, I would time myself. Remember, I had not met this person physically; we just video chatting for a year. And before I met, there was discussions; we’re going to have a child. I actually ended up going to the doctors; what can I do? I really want a boy, because he wanted a boy. All this lovey dove talk and all that, after one year, he came to Africa, and we met. I got pregnant, and then in the second month, this pressure of having a boy started. And he was like; it really has to be a boy. And every time I would talk about, what if it doesn’t? And he said no, it has to be a boy. And I was getting a little bit confused; it’s never a hundred percent. You just try, and you hope. And I ended up with Placenta Previa, and it just escalated from there. I don’t have a job: I don’t have any income at that point, so it is like - “if it’s not a boy, I’m gone. And if you lose this child, I’m gone.” Me having come from that cycle, I now realise that I unconsciously wanted this to work so bad, but by then, I did not even realise it in my mind that it was actually abuse. On top of that that he had married three times, and he actually had a son from his first marriage. 

Sheridan: My partner was obsessed also with having a boy, and we made the agreement we’d have two children, and at one point, he said to me, oh but if we have two girls, we’ll keep going ‘till we have a boy. And I’m like, no, no. I’m only willing to have two more, ‘cos keep in mind, I already had two children. And also, at one point, he made it clear, if on ultrasound anything was wrong with this child, I must abort it. He was obsessed with perfection. Um, I didn’t see how obsessed he was with wanting a boy until our son was born, and this obsession with he must be a mini-me of me. 

Sheba: The (unintelligible) used to say a mini-me. I want a mini-me. 

Sasha: Listening to both of you, it’s very relatable for me. My partner at that time wanted a baby. I got pregnant the first time, and he didn’t want it. I had an abortion. I got pregnant again. He wanted this baby, and then I was four and a half months pregnant, and he decided he didn’t want me to have the child. And it was like, well, we’re having the child. And then it became this - you tricked me into it, you’re trying to control me, turning it around and saying I was the controlling one. He knew I was lying; he knew I was out having affairs. I knew rationally this wasn’t true, but something else kicks in and coming back to families. Like yes, I didn’t expect to be in a violent relationship, but I know that the messages that my father gave my mother was somehow the breakdown of their marriage was her fault, that she let him treat her badly in terms of having affairs. So there was definitely a “this is what a relationship is” and also as a woman wanting to make it work. To try and understand where this poor man is coming from, who’s sobbing and saying he’s been a victim of his previous partner whose taken his child away from him. And all he did was hit her once because she provoked him. Like, I didn’t know any better - I didn’t get that whole complexity of telling a bit of the truth. “I just want to see my other daughter, that’s why I’m behaving like this.” There was so much complexity but still that control around “you can have the baby, you can’t have the baby; I’m only like this because you don’t try and understand me.” And I was working in community services I might add. Like I was starting counselling. People would talk to me about their abusive relationships. I didn’t see mine as abusive. I saw it as a man who needed a lot of understanding and compassion, and maybe I had to work harder. While there was another voice going, well this is shit. I shouldn’t be getting treated like this. It’s very complicated. I remember ringing the Domestic Violence Helpline and saying I think my relationship might be becoming violent. I remember she said, “So what’s happening?” And I said, well you know he’s just pushing me, and he’s shoving me. He blocks the door and I can’t get out. You know, sometimes he stands over me for hours at night yelling at me. And she’s like, “This is abuse.” There was so much emotional investment in wanting to understand, and love and compassion, and not be like this other woman who took his child away from him. Like I wanted the dream as well. 

Sheba: For me, it’s a matter of having faith in someone. This person has shown to you their vulnerability, they’ve shown you a mistreatment from society, from family, from something. But they have not really shown you who they are. They have just shown you areas where they were defeated - that one time when somebody broke their heart. They will not give you anything that puts them as a perpetrator; they will always turn it around to look like the victim. You’re thinking, oh my God, you’ve been through so much! And you’re thinking if I just love this person; if I just show compassion. Oh my God, you haven’t seen your child for twenty years, or you haven’t talked to your parents fro twenty years, or so and so has gotten a restraining order against you because she wanted to make you feel bad. You know… 

Sheridan: My partner, he actually hid his true self very well. In that first 14 months we were together, where we didn’t live together, he really his who he was. Looking back now, I can see some warning signs even in those early months, but I missed them back then. But once I moved in with him, and to give you an example, within a couple of days of moving in with him, he demanded I close my bank accounts and I was to have a shared account that was of course controlled by him. And I didn’t feel comfortable with it, but I remember sort of thinking to myself but my family and friends are going to think I’m stupid if I ended a relationship over a bank account just because he told me to have a shared bank account. And then I started justifying to myself, well, we’ve got to manage the finances and it will make it easier to budget. These are the little head talks you give yourself. 

Sheba: I think DV it comes in really slow, but they will introduce all these characters. They will put it in a way that it makes all these people who are out there holding red flags and going like “no”. You will look at them as your enemies. I did that. Even my family. I sat back and looked at my family and friends and I said you - no, you - no, you - no. Like my friend would call because I was not talking, I was not communicating, and he would not tell me that somebody called up to ask about me. He’d tell me, “Tell your friend to stop randomly texting me.” And I’d go like, what? “Oh, yeah, your friend just randomly texted me in the middle of the day.” And I’m like why? “I don’t know; you ask her.” I just cut people off. I think about a little bit lucky because there were people that thought this cannot be right, this cannot be Sheba. There’s something totally wrong. 

Beth Armstrong: Did any of your friends try to talk to you and say we’re worried about his behaviour? 

Sheba: They did. There’s one who - I’m in Perth and they lived in Sydney. She’d show up; she’d just show up. She didn’t ask, should I come or not? She started feeling like I wasn’t myself, the way I needed to get off the phone really fast and she showed up twice. And the second time before she left, she tell me, “I don’t know what you’re going to do but you need to leave.” The second friend also, she constantly showed up and um, she would tell me, “Anytime there is any chaos, call me but don’t talk. Leave the phone on and I’ll listen in.” She’s the one who actually like, any time there was disturbance, I would call her and she would tell me, “I’m around the corner, so you know, just put the kids in the closet and then get out through the back window. And I’ll be at the corner, I’ll flash my lights twice and you’ll know where I am.” 

Sasha: Yeah, guardian angels. Also my experience was as the relationship went on, if people spoke up and challenged him the violence after was worse for me. So then I would isolate more because you’re trying to manage staying safe. I had a son who was living with us, so I hadn’t had my daughter yet and that was a whole other power and control and abuse that I probably still don’t forgive myself for, but the complication of trying to keep the peace to minimise the impact of everything taken out on me. Not the person who intervened, and also if I shared something with someone about planning to leave he would know. I got to the point where I felt like there was nothing I did that he didn’t find out and it was terrifying. He’d say, “I know what you said to so and so, you-“ And go back to that, “you’re deceptive, you’re a liar.” So, the isolation becomes more and more complicated. You know, I, that’s - 

Sheba: For me it was interesting because I grew up in a violent household and as we all know the cycle is very hard to break, so I had a sister who was his confidant, so everything I did, she’ll tell him. Abuse begets abuse. Now, I have a sister who has taken over the abusive side, whereby, she just transfers her anger to whoever is around her. And it’s not verbal, it’s physical. When I look at my sister it is like a replica of my father and it’s very scary to watch. She is the one who my perpetrator communicates with, nobody else in the family, so it forces me to cut out people I should not cut out, because I know they are in the same household. They are bound to say something and for me the worst part is all my friends knew my perpetrator. He came to my country , we went out , we had dinners, social activities, everything. And you have to have a really good support system. Somebody who’s not blinded by social economic factors, by all the gender inequality, by religion - all this stuff. I come from a culture where as a woman you cannot speak much, you have to persevere. 

Beth Armstrong: Can I just ask what was the turning point for you to go, I have a problem? I need to get out. Sheridan, we haven’t heard from you for a while. 
Sheridan: In my situation the abuse was psychological and coercive controlling. Being a police officer, he knew better than to lay a hand onto me. Part of his abuse did involve physical intimidation, where he would do a finger stabbing action where he would almost poke me and he would just stop short. And he would brag about the fact that because I don’t actually touch you, I’m not abusing you.  Being that psychological abuse, was harder to recognise that I was being abused. But things eventually escalated when I accidentally discovered that he had committed image based abuse - he created fake profiles using photos of me. Some of those photos were intimate photos taken without consent, and when he took the photos I just froze. And because of the abuse I was actually too scared to question him. I reassured myself that being a member of the police force he wouldn’t do anything stupid with those photos. Well weeks after, it was when I discovered the fake profile, I confronted him and he didn’t actually apologise but he tried to justify what he did. And at that point in time I knew I had to get out of the relationship at some stage, but I also feared doing so because at that point I had been with him for a few years, and by that point I knew he was a really dangerous person, and I was concerned that after leaving things would get worse. So I was very much trying to navigate my safety and the children’s safety, so in my mind, I thought well when I confront him, I’ll just see how he responds and depending on how he responds I might try to maintain the relationship ‘till the children are a bit older and I can get back to work so I’ll be financially in a better position to support myself. Now, initially when I confronted him he didn’t really take responsibility but I just thought, all right, well I’ll just see how things go. And I really hoped that me being aware of his crime was going to make him pull his head in and go and get the help he needed. For a few weeks, after that moment where I confronted him, he did curb his psychological abuse somewhat. We sort of carried on and I was expected to pretend like nothing had happened, and then a couple of months after, he came home one day out of the blue and said you are to blame for my crime. And it was that moment where I thought I cannot wait for the kids to get older, I need to get out of here. And started navigating the process out of there. After leaving the legal and systemic abuse escalated enormously. You never completely get away from the abuse. 

Beth Armstrong: Where did you turn to? I mean when you made that decision - 
Sheridan: Up until that point, I had kept so much hidden. Like I was a failure to my family. Like I had left a religion that I was brought up in, then I divorced, and then I met another man and I lived unmarried. 

Sheba: So, are you still living together? 

Sheridan: Oh no, no. I did navigate myself out of the relationship and eventually the police got an intervention order and removed him from the house. It was terrifying and it continues to be. Police have been horrendous. 

Sheba: Can I just interject. If I hadn’t told you my ex-husband was ex-police officer in a city here in WA, and he was head of Domestic Violence. 

Sheridan: Ugh. 

Sasha: This isn’t uncommon. 

Sheridan: In Australia we don’t have accurate statistics I don’t believe but in America, they estimate 20 to 40 percent of the police force are perpetrators themselves. 

Sheba: Let me tell you what freaked me out. One time the neighbours - I had out the kids in the closet and I ran out through the side gate and one of the neighbours called the police. When they came I was waiting for them outside; there was no way I was going to go in. The police came, I was bare feet in my nighty and I am hysterical and he was very composed. He said hi and they started to chit chat, and eventually I asked this female cop, you’ve been called by the neighbours, the neighbours words are there is a woman in distress; there’s things breaking. This is supposed to be a war zone, but you walk into a house and one person is very calm - he’s actually offering you coffee, and the other one is in distress - can you not see?! I’m over there going ballistic. I look like I’ve been in an actual war zone, I’m missing hair - I’ve got bumps on my head, and being a dark skinned person is also a disadvantage because we don’t turn red and dark, especially if you’re as dark as me. He knew I can do anything and nobody will know is that how I normally look. 

Sasha: Especially if your partner’s got status and you’re a migrant with dark skin, like it’s - 

Sheba: And he can also say it’s PTSD. 

Sasha: Mmmm. 

Sheba: She comes from a very bad country. It’s a war zone, you know she’d got PTSD, she reacts. I actually ended up with stress adjustment syndrome and the only way that diagnosed that I walked myself into a hospital and I refused to leave, and I told them every day I’m being called a mad woman, so I really want a diagnosis because he had called me all this stuff. Bipolar, schizophrenic, PTSD, and unfortunately we met in Africa, we lived in a lot of Asian countries where he had a lot of privilege, more than I did. When I first went to my GP, my GP was very shocked at the amount of drugs I had and she asked me why are you taking this? Every time I would go to a hospital my ex was the one who was talking; he would say oh she does this, she can’t sleep, she can’t do this, she can’t function, she’s this, she’s that. I was constantly drugged. One day I walked into the GPs office, same GP I have been seeing for two years, and she looks up to my ex husband and she says, “Today I want to see her alone, without you in the room.” And the first thing she asks me was like, “What’s happening? Ah, I couldn’t talk. I think I cried for like fifteen minutes. She said, “I think I know what’s happening.” I was just crying my eyes out. The relief for someone to pick up that something is very wrong and she said I want you to come back next week. And the second time I went back she told me exactly what was happening - ah, I feel like I had known what was happening but I was in denial, or - 

Sasha: I think it’s survival as well; you don’t just walk out and then everything is okay. And people don’t just believe you either. I felt like I spent years trying to convince the systems that were there to support me, apart from the actual Domestic Violence support services. But the actual systems, like the police and the courts and other people to believe that it was as bad as I said. It took me a long time to actually even admit to myself how horrific what I lived through and what I survived. How could I make, reconcile the person I love with this behaviour?

Sheba: You have loved this person. 

Sasha: Yeah! 

Sheba: That is why you’re together. You have fallen in love, you have had children. I had a child with this person. 

Sasha: Yeah. 

Sheba: I saw him cry, laugh, be happy, be sad, be confused - 

Sasha: Have dreams, have plans and then that same person has his hands around your throat because they think you’re having an affair with someone, while they’re making love with you. This same person is kicking you in the stomach because the man down the hall told him to turn the music down. Like this man starts belting you around the head because you’re talking to a male. It’s just like, I don’t know how to make sense of this. I’m going to hang on to the idea of love, but then you go out to the systems or to the friends and they don’t always believe us either. It’s so isolating and confusing, and for me I feel that constant pressure, that as the woman, I had to come up with the plan. I had to keep my kids safe. I was told though if I stayed with him I was at risk of losing my baby, but once I’m out of the relationship, family law court has a different set of rules, so somehow I’m trying to keep safe and I love this person still. For me it took  a long time for me to even recognise how bad it was. Oh well, he’s called me a fucking slut and a skanky dog and I’m like immune, ‘cos that’s just normal, isn’t it? Isn’t he just angry and upset? 

Sheba: I’ll give an example of myself. If I knew I was going with him to the shop, I would just not comb my hair, not to anything, not do - because the less people look at me, the less I get a backlash after. Just look as disorganised as you can and nobody will look at you and when you get home there is no problem. 

Beth Armstrong: It sounds incredibly stressful. How did you all - Sheridan, why don’t you kick us off - how did you work it with your children? 

Sheridan: With great difficulty. I think though, towards the end especially, the children were a huge motivator to leave, because I realised his obsession with our son meant he was showing obvious favouritism and preference for our son. And it was already impacting our daughter at a very young age. He was always willing to help with our son, but it’s like he viewed his son as his, and the daughter, well, she’s yours. And there was one day, and I was - it was actually really obvious. He went to leave somewhere and he said, I’ll take our son, and our daughter cried out after him and he was like, no, you stay. So I picked her up because she was upset and I said out loud - I spoke as if I was speaking to our daughter, but I deliberately spoke loud enough for him to hear. And I said, “You don’t get to go because you’ve got a vagina.” And he heard so there was that awareness, that I thought, Oh my God, this is really going to affect our daughter. On top of that, he would go into unpredictable rages over the most ridiculous unimportant things, and the rages were so terrifying, it got to the point where our young son would run to me and just cling to my leg. And he was so young, and I just thought, they’re going to think this is normal and I didn’t want them to have that. I knew I had to leave for them. You know I remember feeling relieved when he got up and went to work every morning and then my anxiety is looking at the clock and going okay, there’s an hour to go and he’ll be home. And having to live like that day in and day out is exhausting. 

Sheridan: I really relate to that exhaustion and that makes it really hard to think. You’re so on tenterhooks. There was also a part of me that was doing that back end safety. You know I’d reached out to a domestic violence counsellor who had said to me and please keep coming and seeing me even if and when you go back to him. She said that to me and I was like, What do you mean, I’m not going back. I’d already got my son out with his biological father. I hadn’t shared a lot with my family, yeah, I was ashamed. But I remember, you know, just having that golden moment of his counsellor saying she understood but to be honest, the leaving was terrifying. There was all this planning. I went and I signed a lease on an apartment and he didn’t know anything about it. And we were in huge debt because of he’d taken all my money and I was trying to pay, and deep down still wanting him to be a father. He can still be in his daughter’s life, um, he’s from another culture, he’s a migrant and I also didn’t want to be seen as the white woman who took the kid away from her partner, which is what I was being accused of. So it was a long drawn out process. ‘Cos I left quite a few times and I’d go and stay at my mothers, and then I’d come back, and then I’d leave and then I’d come back. And, you know what I understand now is a lot of women can go back, you know, forever. And sometimes it’s a survival strategy to stay; it’s almost like if you’re living with the tiger, and you know where the tiger is, you can manage them. But when they’re out of sight, you don’t know when they’re going to attack. It took a long time for me to live with that sense of vulnerability.
 
Sheba: You know, with somebody like that, they can be a very good father but a very horrible husband. He was working five/four, and when he came back for those seven days, the first thing he’d say is, I’m tired. I don’t want kids screaming in the morning; I want my beers cold and my woman hot. 

Sasha, Sheridan and Beth: Ohhhhhhh.  

Sasha: Oh, delightful, do they all read the same book? How to talk to women. Where’s the good parenting in that? The good father. I’m sorry - 

Sheba: They do stuff together. Stuff that they never did for eight years. They go fishing, they go to a water park - 

Beth Armstrong: It’s called Disney dad. 

Sheba: What if? At least he’s doing it! You know, for five nights  every three weeks, you know I can literally just sleep without, in the middle of the night, somebody going like, Mum - 

Sasha: I don’t have that, and to be honest I would never let him. And we went through court and it was the most terrifying thing for me once we’d separated that he would then get any custody based on my lived experience with him and the threats he’s made. And so it’s been a real grief as well, for my daughter, but also for me that he can’t be that person, but when it’s really about child protection, you have to go, the other person’s not capable. 

Sheba: For me I think I’ve learned to know that his aim is to out do me, but at the moment it’s working for my son. He’s getting what he never got because if I was in that house, I was not a mother to two children, I was a mother to three. Everybody wanted attention, “Oh, you’re one of those wives, when you have kids you neglect your husband. Oh, you’re a neglecting wife.” 

Sheridan: I’m a fan of Lundy Bancroft and he says a good father does not abuse his children’s mother. When you’re abusing your partner or your ex-partner that automatically disqualifies you as being a good father. Read Lundy Bancroft’s book, “Why did he do that? - Inside the mind’s of controlling and abusive men.” That was probably one of the first books I read many years ago. You just read it and go why didn’t someone give me this book when I was in my early teen years. We’re taught - Oh, boys just don’t mature as quickly as girls. Boys will be boys. All those, sort of commentsmake boy’s behaviours acceptable. Rapists have about a one percent chance of going to jail. Of course men are not stopping their behaviours. There’s no consequences and it’s the same with domestic violence perpetrators. Women have to fight to get intervention orders. If they separate they then go through the court and like the exact double bind you were talking about earlier, Sasha, if I stay I could lose my child, but if I leave, I then have to hand that child over to a person who you fear could even take their lives if they snapped. 

Sasha: Yeah - 

Sheridan: You know - 

Sasha: - and it’s a crazy system that does that, and if you’ve got children this continues. I still don’t think there’s a lot of understanding of how complicated it is. 

Beth Armstrong: What do you all think needs to change? 

Sasha: Have you got the dot points? Where do we begin?!

Sheba: I’m living it right now. Number one, I will speak as an immigrant - Any first responder you have to know how abuser presents on a dark skin. Number two, first responders, if somebody has to call you and tell you there is trouble, and you walk into a house, and one person is too comfortable, come on. It’s common sense, everywhere. Another thing that I want people to realise, your friend, sister, whatever might be in a bad situation; they have just two options, stay and die, or leave and live. It just depends where you land, for me I think the strongest people I’ve ever met are the people who’ve left. There’s nothing strong about staying. Strength comes when you took that first step and left. It is hard; it is confusing, you don’t have a future. You don’t feel like it can happen- 

Beth Armstrong: Sheridan, What about you? What would you like to see change? 

Sheridan: The legal system. There are enormous gaps between state and federal legislation, which causes enormous problems. I think the family court needs to be managed by the state. Immunity must go. My profession is in the medical field and our first rule, it’s embedded in law, is first do no harm. I have had an experience of professionals causing harm. Any professional working with victims of domestic violence need to have specialist family violence training. I also think all professionals across all fields need to be assessed themselves - given that family violence is such an enormous problem in our society, we need to screen people for their attitudes towards family violence. You know, filter out - are they a perpetrator? I think the screening also needs to include personality disorder testing and that’s of everyone from a judge to a social worker. There needs to be consequences for perpetrators. At the moment, there’s none. The other problem we have is we have psychologists and psychiatrists doing reports. They’re mental health experts, not family violence experts. We need to include children’s voices. Currently we have a system that allows abusive men to drag women to court when children are 16, 17 years old trying to get custody of children. At that age, the child is practically taking over their life. They should have a say in what happens. In Victoria, we’ve had a Royal Commission into family violence. One of the recommendations recommended creating multi-disciplinary centres. We have senior police officers in those multi-disciplinary centres who are perpetrator protectors. We have victims of violence coming forward saying they’ve had police officers lying in court to help a perpetrator. All I’ve seen over the years is that not only has nothing changed but there is now pushback from people and professionals who are making a fortune who don’t want the system to change. You know, some of the family court report writers, I’ve heard there’s some that charge as much as thirty-five, forty thousand dollars for one report, when they’ve only met this family once for about an hour. We have the Edwards Coronial Enquiry. There are so many women around the country who say what’s happened to Olga Edwards is happening to me. 

Sheba: Sorry, what’s her name? 

Sheridan: Olga Edwards, and her children, Jack and Jennifer Edwards. 

Beth Armstrong: Their father, he applied for a gun license after they’d been many reports to the police of domestic violence, and he was still given a gun licence and he murdered his children. He took his own life, and his wife, later, took her own life. Thank you for that, I’ll just let Sasha add to that. 

Sasha: I think we really need to acknowledge that this is a community responsibility, and we need to stop asking women why did they stay? It is really outdated. It continues the idea that somehow it’s up to the woman and largely it is still women who are the survivors, and we need to start turning the lens on why there are so many perpetrators who think they have the right to treat their partner or women and children in this way, and we need to look at the systemic gender imbalance. People need to have patience and love and acceptance, because when you see a family member or a friend in a violent relationship. It doesn’t have to be physical and in fact the coercive control and the psychological ones are even more crazy making, we need to start having the respect and support as a community. Rather than turning our backs on women when they stay. And understand that it is not uncommon to stay far beyond what an outsider would think they would cope with, and once you’re in it, you do understand why it’s so complicated. So, I really think we need to working on that. We really need to stop shaming and start honouring women who survive and come up with some incredible strategies of surviving and moving forward and protecting their children. I think we have to stop being shocked when we hear that a woman’s been living in a violent or abusive situation, and start going what’s going on in our community that this is acceptable. In terms of the family law court I feel really strongly about that. It has to change; we can’t just be about early intervention. And the child experts, which are the psychiatrists, if they are running their sessions in NSW, they are not recorded. It is handwritten notes by that person who is interviewing the children, the perpetrator and the survivor, all in one go at times, and there’s no accountability and I’ve read some horrific family reports that recommend some terrible things. So - 

Sheridan: It’s the same in Victoria; they don’t record. 

Sasha: You know there’s a lot around family and friends to better understand. You know, the question, why do you stay? It’s like asking someone, why do you have a panic attack? You can’t rationally answer that. It’s so complicated; let’s shift the lens and let’s start looking at well, why is there so much power and control and abuse? 

Beth Armstrong: So, why do you think they felt entitled to behave that way or did behave that way? 

Sheba: Abusive people know vulnerable people. 

Sheridans: Perpetrators see a vulnerability and use it as a weapon against that person. And I think it comes down to entitlement, misogyny and patriarchy, and I think those qualities are very much embedded within our society and within our culture. Boys are taught from a young age that they’re the head of the household. Boys are expected to go through Uni, get higher paid jobs, now obviously that’s changing, but even now we see in school and in universities girls excel, but the moment they qualify, where are they in the leadership positions? It’s all interlinked with gender inequality. There’s awareness now, there’s a lot of talk, but we need to see  real change. 

Beth Armstrong: Hear, hear. 

Sasha: Mmm. 

Beth Armstrong: So, how has it affected your sense of confidence, your trust in men and in relationships? 

Sasha: I’m not afraid to go into relationships. I’m probably more cautious, but I’m also someone who will still always give people then benefit of the doubt, and that’s my nature. I have come out wiser, um, I like to celebrate my hero moments through that time, because I know we’ve talked a lot about the struggle, but there’s been a lot of hero moments. You know, there certainly wasn’t always me cowering in a corner. And I had a hero moment the other night. There was some guy out the back going off like a maniac. My daughter and I are in our house. She comes in and she’s like, can you hear that? Like I’m often frightened of men who are aggressive. I get quite anxious. And the other night I was just like, Oh this is just fucking ridiculous! I am so sick of aggressive, angry men and I’m like getting dressed. (laughs) And she’s like, “What are you doing, Mum?” And I went out on to the balcony, and this guy’s just going off at this women, you know, “You fucking dog” Whatever, you know the usual shit. And it was this really nice empowering moment, where I just yelled across the place. I said, “Hey, what the hell are you doing?” And then he turned it on me, and he’s like, “You friggin, blah!” And I was like, there was no fear for me in that moment. I said, “You need to calm down, or I’m calling the police. This is not okay.” And he’s like, “You call the police, I’ll show you who I am!” And it was a really nice moment for me to just go, I am just done with this shit. This is not okay. That’s part of this process for me, where I go, you know what, this has to change. So, anyway - 

Sheba: You know when you sit back and think about who was this woman. You know I’ve reconnected with my friends and I always tell them you can now talk freely, and sometimes I feel like my mind has blanked out certain things. Because they tell me something and I’m thinking, did I really do that? (laughs) But my friend, the one who first took me out, she told me, pain changes people, but I will wait for you. I can never forget her love; I love her to the moon and back. 

Beth Armstrong: What about you Sheridan? Did you want to speak on this, and what you would you advise other women in this situation? 

Sheridan: Once you’re in this situation it’s never going to improve, unless the perpetrator identifies and accepts their behaviour is not acceptable and works on themselves to change. Now we don’t even have accurate research on men’s behaviour change, but the little bit we do have, we know the percentage of men, who genuinely change for good, is incredibly small. So my advice is get out sooner rather than later. Trust your gut instinct - you are smart; you are clever. You deserve far better, and just don’t stay; it’s not worth it. Often in these relationship those disrespectful behaviours will eventually escalate into various forms of abuse. It takes an enormous amount of self awareness to change, and abusive men just don’t have that. They’re too busy pointing the finger at everyone else around them. They can’t look at themselves, and you know, that’s where Jess Hill’s book, “See what you made me do”, she talks a lot about men’s guilt and shame and humiliation and fury - definitely worth a read. 

Sasha: It’s in my bag as we speak. 

Beth Armstrong: Is there any red flags that you think are important that people perhaps see as benign? 

Sheba: When somebody tells you they’re a really good person. 

Sheridan: A really good person doesn’t have to convince someone they’re a really good person. 

Sheba: If someone tells you they’re a really good person, sweetie, run. 
(laughter)

Sasha: That’s so true. 

Sheridan: Some red flags are intense monitoring. Excessive texts and phone calls. When you’re in an early part of a relationship that can feel really flattering, oh, he cares. It’s probably going to escalate and get worse into serious forms of stalking. How he speaks about women in general, especially ex-partners. Any amount of disrespect or blame for the breakdown of pas relationships - Lundy Bancroft, in his book that I mentioned earlier, he actually recommends go speak to the ex partner, it will be an eye opener. 

Sasha: And it is, can I just say having had that privilege. 

Sheba: All your exes were psychos, like, sweetie, come on. 

Sasha laughs: Yeah. 

Sheba: How can you be such an unfortunate man, to have every ex has a mental health problem, oh she was bipolar too, she was pscyho. 

Sasha: There’s a lot of books out there with information about red flags, some behaviours and one of those things is to align you as the new partner against the old partner, and part of that then is once you’re in, there’s a bit of a shame, where you go, oh my gosh, now I’m in here and I had all this loyalty to this person and now he’s treating me like this, so she must have been right. I think those red flags start small. I have yet to hear of man who goes, hey, I’m a really abusive bastard and I’m going to show you that. So, it’s those subtle things like the control. The - it’s on their terms, it’s what they want to do, it’s the love bombing and then the silence. It’s the  - I love you, you’re amazing, and then actually you’re not amazing. All these little things, if a person can’t have an emotionally intelligent friggin’ conversation about disagreement, you’ve just go to know where that goes. It doesn’t have to be I’m going to punch you in the face. 

Sheba: And also like, when you look at it, this person is not a psychiatrist. Is not even a GP but they diagnose everybody around them. 
(laughter) 

Sheba: They’ll diagnose you and they’ll recommend the drug you should take. 

Beth Armstrong: The other thing I wanted to ask you is what can other people who see this happening do to help? 

Sheridan: Just be non-judgemental and if you can in practical ways -  like often women at some point will start safety planning - and if you’re willing  to keep a copy of all her important documents or a set of clothes for her and the kids in a cupboard in your house. Know her code word. Reach out - I’m here for you, kind of thing. Let them know that you’re a safe person. She may not even know who’s safe to reach out to in a situation where they have mutual friends, so making it known, that you’re an option and a safe place. Document what she tells you; this is what she told me happened, these are the bruises I saw on her arms and around her neck on this date, because so much violence happens behind closed doors, it all comes down to evidence, which usually women don’t have. If you’re a bloke and you are around this man, call his behaviours out. Like even Sasha on the balcony that night, hearing what Sasha said might empower her to go, this is wrong and I deserve better. 

Sheba: Some of us might look like strong women but before somebody starts abusing you physically, they’ve broken you down so much, so they know even if they hit you, they know you are not going to react. And the fact that they have the guts to come and tell you that they’re not going to do that again, they know you’re going to buy it. 

Sheridan: I think another thing, try to avoid the clichés. Try to avoid, oh, “well what doesn’t kill you will make you stronger.” There are better ways of making people stronger. You know: “Everything happens for a reason.” No, there’s no reason. 

Sasha: I had a friend once, who when I started opening up about what was happening, she said, “Well where in you, are you abusing yourself?” That was not the time, the place - it was so shaming and what you need is the opposite. Don’t minimise the behaviour, don’t try and make it okay - “Oh, it’s you know, maybe he’s just having a bad day.”

Sheridan: Yup. 

Sasha: I also think we need to reduce the stereotype of who is in these relationships and a lot of that is about the shared experiences and we see more and more those platforms of women speaking out in all levels of society, or education levels, or backgrounds, you know some people come from very loving, stable homes and still end up with an abusive - 

Sheridan: Yes

Sasha: - partner. One of my pet hates is saying that women with low self esteem are in these relationships. 

Sheridan: Yeah. Yeah. 

Sasha: I have plenty of friends that have low self esteem that have not been in abusive relationships (laughs) 

Sasha: I don’t even know how you measure low self esteem. 

Sheba: Thank you, you don’t know. 

Sasha: So can we please get that off the education - (laughs) 

Sheba: Yeah. It cuts across social, economic, psychological, physical. And the worst thing for me, I worry about being an immigrant in Australia. I worry about the culture. It is unspoken. I remember when I was too new, I used to be embarrassed. Oh my god, it’s been the second time in fourdays, and so the third time, I dropped my face in a pillow. And I know my head is going to get punched, I’m going to get kicked, but if I can scream in the pillow nobody is going to hear me. You know, the more noise I make, the bigger the consequences. Remember, I was on a spousal visa, that could have been withdrawn any time, you say anything your visa is gone. Your son is Australian, your daughter is Kenyan, so you and your daughter go. 

Sasha: Being on a temporary visa, there’s such an added vulnerability there, but there are services and support around and there are refuges where they will work with women on temporary visas. It is an added vulnerability and power and control thing and you’ve lived it obviously, not me, but I suppose - 

Sheba: Yeah. In Western Australia, there’s SCOPE - Beth can spell it out, umm (holds up sign) 
Beth Armstrong: S-C-O-P-E. 

Sheba: If you are in WA, they are in Murdoch University, and um, I really did not need to do much. I attached my police report. You don’t even have to have the exact dates, because for me I just had rough dates. I wasn’t doing really good but I know that is another story for another day. 

Beth Armstrong: Thank you very much to Sheridan, to Sheba and to Sasha. Thank you all very much for your time and your hearts. 

Sasha: Thank you and lovely to meet - 

(overlapping) Sheba: No worries. 

Sasha: - you all! Beautiful! (fading out) 

Sheba: Thank you. I really, really appreciate it - (fades out) 

END.